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  • is it just me or is shinn abit broken in the head about stella alot more than "love interest" would normally account for, she glasses three cities and he cant fight her even though she's nuts then gets pissed when kira puts her down? christ there has been a more unlikeable MS protagonist in the entire series

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    • To be fair, the reason Stella's "nuts" is due to the constant application of mind-altering drugs that she's forced to take after every battle by doctors working for the Earth Alliance (as part of the Phantom Pain unit's "Extended" program).

      I agree that Shinn's not the brightest bulb, and [as part of his backstory] he let the praise from his instructors in ZAFT get to his head, but he's already got serious anger issues due to what happened to him in the past. Said anger issues have a lot to do with Kira's unit; the Freedom.

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    • I would argue that his anger issues mostly come from Orb being useless and how they keep making one bad decision after another. Uzumi blowing himself up, Cagalli caving in to Yuna, everything related to Orb's alliance with the Federation of Racist War Criminals, and them not handing over Djibril when literally the entire world has turned against Logos.

      Then again, I'm pretty sure Orb issued an evacuation order long before the battle started (being ages since I watched SEED), so maybe the root of his problem was his family being too dumb to take shelter even when war was literally about to start?

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    • Technically, while Uzumi's logic about staying behind could've used some work, someone had to make sure the mass-driver was destroyed (considering it was mentioned that it could only be done manually).

      From what I know, the Coordinators in the Orb colony were prevented from getting to shelters or evacuating by the Seirans.  Considering their character (and their early-revealed affiliations), it's not surprising that Unato & Yuna Seiran would do such a thing.

      Shinn blames the entirety of Orb, when in-fact the blame really should go to the Seirans for screwing everything up.

      And, especially regarding the Freedom, Shinn has major issues with that mobile suit because it failed to save his family (and, as far as he's concerned, may have been responsible for a stray blast that killed them).

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    • Ifnsman wrote:
      Technically, while Uzumi's logic about staying behind could've used some work, someone had to make sure the mass-driver was destroyed (considering it was mentioned that it could only be done manually).

      From what I know, the Coordinators in the Orb colony were prevented from getting to shelters or evacuating by the Seirans.  Considering their character (and their early-revealed affiliations), it's not surprising that Unato & Yuna Seiran would do such a thing.

      Shinn blames the entirety of Orb, when in-fact the blame really should go to the Seirans for screwing everything up.

      And, especially regarding the Freedom, Shinn has major issues with that mobile suit because it failed to save his family (and, as far as he's concerned, may have been responsible for a stray blast that killed them).

      Eh... No it wasn't, that was literally never stated. Plus, even it it was manual only, the point is still moot since he dragged literally every other Orb leader with him, leaving a massive power vacuum that Cagalli couldn't possibly fill alone, for no real reason other than "MUH HONOR IS TARNISHED!"

      Also, now you're just making things up. Please tell me, where is that ever stated? The Seirans are not Blue Cosmos style racist zealots, they are opportunists. There's no reason for them to pull off something so batshit insane.

      Plus, Shinn literally doesn't even know about Freedom's role in the death of his family.

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    • Had to rewatch to make sure. It doesn't change what's apparent; that activating the self-destruction of Kaguya Mass Driver manually was the only way to make sure. Though obviously some of those people closest to Uzumi still should've left with the rest. Plus, Cagalli wasn't alone anyway, even considering the treason committed by the Seirans.

      I definitely mixed up what occurs at the Mendel Colony with certain manga events & the Stargazer ONA (been a while since I last watched the latter anyway), but I'm certain the Seirans already had anti-Coordinator sentiment even if they weren't "zealots" on the level of Blue Cosmos; and while it's not surprising that they're opportunistic, it is surprising that they didn't also take the opportunity to hand Djibril over to ZAFT to gain goodwill with them when LOGOS was clearly at a disadvantage. They're definitely negatively predisposed against Coordinators if they choose to do what's political at first, but then later decide to deny the whereabouts of the warmongering villain to ZAFT despite the serious disadvantage ORB has AND it being in their political interest to cooperate. Not as opportunistic as you think. Either that, or the Seirans were dumber than I thought.

      Shinn not knowing about Freedom's exact role is ultimately irrelevant. He saw it fighting overhead against one of the Earth Alliance's new prototypes at the time, and the destruction from the fight resulted in his family's deaths.  Of course, I haven't forgotten that Stella was directly killed by the Freedom as well, which only made it much worse in Shinn's eyes (actively seeking revenge at that point).

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    • Ifnsman wrote:
      Had to rewatch to make sure. It doesn't change what's apparent; that activating the self-destruction of Kaguya Mass Driver manually was the only way to make sure. Though obviously some of those people closest to Uzumi still should've left with the rest. Plus, Cagalli wasn't alone anyway, even considering the treason committed by the Seirans.

      Except that makes no sense,  why the hell would they design a self-destruct system that requires someone to be there when it blows up?  Are you seriously telling me that a country that can figure out how to make mobile suits can't figure out remote controls? There's really no other way to interpret that scene other than Uzumi thought he failed his people and chose to die, which accomplished nothing other than throwing his people to the wolves. And sure,  Cagalli wasn't alone,  but none of those people were people who could have prevented the alliance with EA (Challenge Everything!). 

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    • YoshiSuperDragon wrote:
      Ifnsman wrote:
      Had to rewatch to make sure. It doesn't change what's apparent; that activating the self-destruction of Kaguya Mass Driver manually was the only way to make sure. Though obviously some of those people closest to Uzumi still should've left with the rest. Plus, Cagalli wasn't alone anyway, even considering the treason committed by the Seirans.
      Except that makes no sense,  why the hell would they design a self-destruct system that requires someone to be there when it blows up?  Are you seriously telling me that a country that can figure out how to make mobile suits can't figure out remote controls? There's really no other way to interpret that scene other than Uzumi thought he failed his people and chose to die, which accomplished nothing other than throwing his people to the wolves. And sure,  Cagalli wasn't alone,  but none of those people were people who could have prevented the alliance with EA (Challenge Everything!). 

      It does make sense. Would you really expect an equally technologically-advanced military force (and one that's developed mass-drivers of their own) to not have a way to stop remote detonations of one?

      Pretty sure both the Seirans and the Sahakus (though the latter appeared only in manga) were more than capable of preventing an alliance.

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    • Ifnsman wrote:

      It does make sense. Would you really expect an equally technologically-advanced military force (and one that's developed mass-drivers of their own) to not have a way to stop remote detonations of one?

      Pretty sure both the Seirans and the Sahakus (though the latter appeared only in manga) were more than capable of preventing an alliance.

      ...Okay, you just keep making things up. How the hell are the Alliance supposed to stop a remote detonation without physically breaking into the mass driver?

      Also, are you seriously saying that Uzumi should count on the Seirans and the Sahakus to help Orb? The Seirans literally came up with the alliance​​​​​​​, and the Sahakus were the reason Orb got into that mess in the first place because they were the ones who started G Project and got Heliopolis blown up.

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    • That's not even close to "making things up", and did I even say "without" breaking into it? No, it's an educated guess that the Earth Alliance most likely has the means to prevent a remote detonation of a Mass-Driver because of both having built their own Mass-Drivers in the past and remotely-detonating other locations themselves in the past (such as the Endymion Crater).  The Bloody Valentine War was obviously accompanied by an arms-race (especially in mobile suit development), so it shouldn't be surprising in the least if all sides had means to counteract the actions of other sides.

      The Seirans arranged the alliance ("literally" is unnecessary) after Uzumi died and after the Break The World Incident. You're the one who argued just how opportunistic they are, so what if Uzumi was still alive & more fragments of Junius Seven were destroyed (lessening the damage to Earth)?

      Yes, the Sahakus are the reason the G Project started. After Rondo Gina (the initial Heir who made deals with Azrael) was killed; Rondo Mina went on to defend Orb refugees, covertly assist in the attempt to break up Junius Seven, prevented a certain Martian from stopping Kira Yamato [who was saving/abducting Cagalli from her wedding with Yuna], and finally killing the reborn Rondo Gina.  As far as can be gleaned from the manga, Mina's character is a less extreme variation of her brother, simply loyal to Orb and letting go of her ambition in favor of Cagalli continuing to rule.

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    • Ifnsman wrote:
      That's not even close to "making things up", and did I even say "without" breaking into it? No, it's an educated guess that the Earth Alliance most likely has the means to prevent a remote detonation of a Mass-Driver because of both having built their own Mass-Drivers in the past and remotely-detonating other locations themselves in the past (such as the Endymion Crater).  The Bloody Valentine War was obviously accompanied by an arms-race (especially in mobile suit development), so it shouldn't be surprising in the least if all sides had means to counteract the actions of other sides.

      The Seirans arranged the alliance ("literally" is unnecessary) after Uzumi died and after the Break The World Incident. You're the one who argued just how opportunistic they are, so what if Uzumi was still alive & more fragments of Junius Seven were destroyed (lessening the damage to Earth)?

      Yes, the Sahakus are the reason the G Project started. After Rondo Gina (the initial Heir who made deals with Azrael) was killed; Rondo Mina went on to defend Orb refugees, covertly assist in the attempt to break up Junius Seven, prevented a certain Martian from stopping Kira Yamato [who was saving/abducting Cagalli from her wedding with Yuna], and finally killing the reborn Rondo Gina.  As far as can be gleaned from the manga, Mina's character is a less extreme variation of her brother, simply loyal to Orb and letting go of her ambition in favor of Cagalli continuing to rule.

      It's not an educated guess because there's absolutely no evidence behind what you said. The Alliance has never demonstrated anything even resembling the ability to stop a Mass-Driver from being remotely detonated. According to the Cosmic Era timeline, ZAFT tried to detonate the one in Victoria, and the Alliance had to storm it with a special forces team and disarm it, instead of just remotely bricking it.

      And ultimately, this whole manual and remote thing is irrelevant. Uzumi intentionally blew himself and multiple other government officials up, which caused lasting damage to the future of Orb as whole, and significantly contributed to Shinn haitng Orb so much. He is the dumb one, not Shinn, which was the point I've been trying to make.

      Uzumi most likely knows about the Seirans, and how they don't give a crap about Orb's ideals as long as they can profit, and how Cagalli isn't mature enough to deal with them on her own (See? This is an educated guess. As in, Uzumi logically should know these things because he's the leader of Orb and Cagalli's dad.) Yet he still decided to blow himself up and let Cagalli deal with all this crap. This is dumb.

      Also, if the Sahakus can stop the alliance, why the hell didn't they? Other than the out of universe explanation that Astray almost takes place in its own pocket universe with how little interactions it has with the main series, that is. (Also, the Sahakus aren't part of the Five Families any more by the time of Destiny, but that's not important.)

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    • You ["literally"] just provided the evidence.  What makes you believe the Earth Alliance wouldn't do the same as they did in Victoria? If it worked before, there's no doubt they'd do it again.

      Yes, he intentionally did so, but this changes nothing about the reason why it had to be done that way. He could've done better in forcing the other government officials to leave without him, but the fact remains that Shinn is blaming the wrong individuals.

      You call your statement about Uzumi & the Seirans an educated guess, and then try to call mine out for "no evidence" despite immediately providing it. Not only is this a double-standard, that's just plain hypocritical. Logically, the Earth Alliance should know how to deal with remote detonations of facilities such as Mass-Drivers based on what happened at both the Endymion Crater and at Victoria.  You're not making any progress here.

      I already gave the reason why the Sahakus didn't stop the Alliance; Gina, the heir at the time of the Bloody Valentine War & the one who made secret dealings with Muruta Azrael.  And I'm definitely going to need to see a source on this "out-of-universe explanation".

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    • Ifnsman wrote:
      You ["literally"] just provided the evidence.  What makes you believe the Earth Alliance wouldn't do the same as they did in Victoria? If it worked before, there's no doubt they'd do it again.

      Yes, he intentionally did so, but this changes nothing about the reason why it had to be done that way. He could've done better in forcing the other government officials to leave without him, but the fact remains that Shinn is blaming the wrong individuals.

      You call your statement about Uzumi & the Seirans an educated guess, and then try to call mine out for "no evidence" despite immediately providing it. Not only is this a double-standard, that's just plain hypocritical. Logically, the Earth Alliance should know how to deal with remote detonations of facilities such as Mass-Drivers based on what happened at both the Endymion Crater and at Victoria.  You're not making any progress here.

      I already gave the reason why the Sahakus didn't stop the Alliance; Gina, the heir at the time of the Bloody Valentine War & the one who made secret dealings with Muruta Azrael.  And I'm definitely going to need to see a source on this "out-of-universe explanation".

      Oh for the love of god...

      1. The Earth Alliance wasn't even CLOSE to being able to land troops in the mass driver at the time.

      2. HE DIDN'T HAVE TO DO IT HIMSELF! He could literally just send some random Orb soldier and tell him to die for his country. As Destiny has shown, Orb soldiers love dying for stupid reasons like honor anyway.

      3. The Endymion Crater has NOTHING to do with this. Are you seriously saying that just because they can rig a base to remotely detonate means they can STOP a base from remotely detonating? THAT'S NOT HOW ANY OF THIS WORKS! As for Victoria, as I said, they only stopped it from exploding because they sent special forces soldiers to PHYSICALLY BREAK INTO THAT PLACE! 

      4. For the love of god, GINA'S FUCKING DEAD at the time the alliance was made! What the hell are you even talking about at this point?!

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    • Your god, not mine...

      1. And how does "at the time" prevent the Earth Alliance from getting [CLOSE] to the Kaguya Mass Driver before it could be detonated from a safe distance remotely? Orb's defending units certainly weren't a good enough defense, considering their only goal was to make sure the others escaped.

      2. And what makes you believe that I'm specifically arguing he had to [DO IT HIMSELF]? Despite me acknowledging that Uzumi could've handled that situation better; you're seriously still equating my saying the likely need for detonating the Mass Driver manually, in your mind, also means I'm saying Uzumi has to be the one?

      3. I'm afraid it does, because what happened at Endymion was completely set up [and remotely detonated] by the Earth Alliance, and it has a clear impact on [HOW ANY OF THIS WORKS]. Clearly, you've never seen or heard of any demolition disarmament in real-life; practical or theoretical by today's standards. [PHYSICALLY BREAKING INTO THAT PLACE] can easily work to prevent remote detonation, but with obvious risks involved (and does the Earth Alliance care about risks to soldiers they deem expendable?).

      4. [GINA'S FUCKING DEAD] is not entirely true, considering he comes back as a "carbon human", and since VS Astray occurs concurrently with SEED Destiny, this means that Gina's around by the time the Seirans made their alliance.  I thought he was a clone, but nope, so "[FUCKING DEAD]" he was not.

      So, I take it you've given up on this imagined "out-of-universe explanation" because you can't find it?

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    • You know what, I'm done. I'm done arguing with you. You twist everything you see to fit your insane logic so you are never wrong. Must be great living in your fantasy world where you are right about everything.

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    • All things considered, that's quite a way to concede the argument.

      "Twist everything"? I could say the same about you, considering what you just tried.

      And I'm pretty sure a fantasy world [specifically the characters in it] is ultimately what we're arguing about.

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    • Honestly I feel like everyone in the Cosmic Era is missing quite a lot of brain cells judging from all the inane decisions done in the two tv shows alone.

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    • at least we can agree they arent as dumb as the people living in the Mobile Fighter G Gundam universe

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    • LunarlMune wrote:
      at least we can agree they arent as dumb as the people living in the Mobile Fighter G Gundam universe

      I wouldn't call the people of the Future Century "dumb", so much as cheesy, overdramatic/hammy, over-the-top, etc.

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    • A FANDOM user
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