Talk:XXXG-00W0 Wing Gundam Zero

Consider they are very differrent, how about spliting EW Gundams from its TV series? やらないか? 10:54, December 21, 2010 (UTC)

Gundam XXX ver EW and Gundam XXX Custom. Please note these refer to the same thing, and we should be deciminating that information so the general public knows that both usages are esentially acceptable. For note, the word "custom" was applied to differentiate the EW design and the original TV design. However, more often than not when referring to the unit, Japanese text will not differentiate the unit, they may put "Wing Zero" but show a picture of the "Wing Zero ver EW." This is due to the fact that the official word is that they are different interpretations of the same unit, similar to Nu and Hi-Nu Gundam.

In terms of canon, they're considered the same suits. Yes the EW's do function differently than their TV counterparts, but the two designs are considered the same suit. Nu and Hi-Nu are different suits, though they take on the same protagonistic Gundam role in the movie and novels respectively. Gaeaman 788 - pilot of the RB-79/FS Ball Full Saber 19:42, February 27, 2011 (UTC)

Are these Gunpla pics of a future MG, or no?

I saw these pics on the Wing Zero's page and I wondered if this hinted at a future Master Grade release. Does anyone have the answers? Thank you all in advance for your time. XD X3

First of all, this discussion is better suited to a forum, not the talk section of the Wiki article. But in any case... I am skeptical for three reasons. The first being that there has been zero mention of this in the Gundam Ace issues up to current, and if a Wing Zero Master Grade was coming out, it would be plastered all over the pages of Ace like Epyon and Shenlong Ka are. Second is that I can't find any blog articles or mention of them around. Third is that they are focusing on releasing Katoki version designs right now, and pictured there is Wing Zero TV version. So either this is bogus, or an old article based on the HG 1/100 perhaps. Then again, I can't seem to find when exactly these photos were added in the page history log, so who knows how long these have been here. Point is, it's probably fake or misinterpreted scans. Kit-chan 04:46, April 9, 2011 (UTC)

In retrospect, they probably ARE of the HG 1/100. That being said, it WOULD be nice if they intended on doing so. XD X3 Perfect Daiteioh 05:04, April 9, 2011 (UTC)

Gaeaman suggested they may be a conversion kit for the MG Wing. Seems about as likely as it being the 1/100, but I don't know which it is exactly. Kit-chan 05:38, April 9, 2011 (UTC)

Interesting. I wonder where one would acquire such a thing. Perfect Daiteioh 05:40, April 9, 2011 (UTC)

Shouldnt we create a separate page for the tv and ew versions?

yes, i think that the suits are vastly different, in terms of appearance, and armaments. anyone have some opinions on this matter? i think that this should happen for the other wing suits too. like two pages for heavyarms, etc. The Commander That is Brave... =.=; 11:11, May 24, 2011 (UTC)

I vote yes, in favor of having a page for each version.

~ Azkaiel 12:17, May 24, 2011 (UTC)

And same for Epyon (since we get an EW Ver. soon), I presume ? I'm okay with that, actually. The "EW Ver." are different interpretations of the TV versions like the Nightingale was for the Sazabi. HPZ - O.N.E. 11:31, May 24, 2011 (UTC)

Big fat NO. They are the same mobile suit, they have the same history, and that would set an awful precedent for future pages. Can you imagine the clutter with us having to make a page for the 2 versions of every After Colony mobile suit? Because they have all been redesigned at least somewhat now for the manga/novel. Not to mention the can of worms that is deciding which name to use for them. Absolutely terrible idea, they're retcons, they're the same suit, they should stay together. Kit-chan 17:07, May 24, 2011 (UTC)

There's just one problem with what you're saying : Wing Zero and Wing Zero EW Ver. don't have the same type : the TV Version is a transformable MS whereas the EW Ver. isn't. HPZ - O.N.E. 17:33, May 24, 2011 (UTC)

It has that 'cocoon/capsule' mode instead, doesn't it? I dunno if that's considered a mobile armor or anything though. Still, they're the exact same serial number, exact same suit in canon, so the point stands. By the way, Epyon Ka still has MA mode so that argument wouldn't hold up for it. Kit-chan 17:38, May 24, 2011 (UTC)

This is just a Protection/Shield Mode, not a flying mode like the Neo-Bird Mode. It's here to replace the missing shield of the EW Ver. . For the serial number, see the RX-93 : there are two of them, the regular one and the Double Fin Funnel Type one, but with the same model number. "All Gundam Complete Works" separate the two Wing Zero by the "(EW Ver.)" designation (same for the other ones).HPZ - O.N.E. 17:53, May 24, 2011 (UTC)

Let me put it this way then: what practical function would separating the page play? The only thing you'd be changing is moving some artwork, changing a few accessories (TV's shield and Custom's atmospheric wing shields), and the mobile armor mode designation. History, by way of them being retcons, would be exactly the same; so would the large majority of all other technical info. All it would do is make it more confusing for people looking for (either) version of the suit, or even people looking to compare them. Kit-chan 18:01, May 24, 2011 (UTC)

As I said earlier, the TV version and the EW Ver. are as different as the v Gundam and the Hi-v Gundam or the Sazabi and the Nightingale : they do have the same story (more or less for the Hi-v : it's actually the completed form of the v, but it is the case for the Nightingale) but are different MS. Well, that's just my opinion about that, but I understand perfectly what you mean. Anyway, let's wait for another thoughts. HPZ - O.N.E. 18:26, May 24, 2011 (UTC)

HPZ, the main problem is is that canonically, the suits are the same. Katoki reimagined the suits as exaggerations of the original TV suits. My question to you is, if we separate Wing Gundam Zero from Wing Gundam Zero Custom, wouldn't that justify splitting up the other Gundam Wing Ver-Ka designs. Take Altron and Altron Cusom for example. Besides the radically different designs of the suits, Altron Custom has less weapons than its OVA counterpart, missing the beam tail, flamethrowers, and shield. My point is that if you do want to split up Wing Zero and Wing Zero Custom for both their physical and technological differences, then that would justify spliitting all of the AC Gundams between their OVA and TV versionsGaeaman 788 - The sign of Zeta leads to a dead end 21:50, May 24, 2011 (UTC)

And that's precisely what Brave is asking. And as for the canoncal thing, the fact that weapons are missing and/or added in the EW Ver. make them different : where the Altron used its shield, the Altron EW Ver. didn't. Same for the Wing Zero : in the situations where it transformed, it's EW Ver. didn't. See what I mean ? For me, but that's only my opinion, the EW Ver. are set in an alternate version of the After Colony timeline. HPZ - O.N.E. 22:15, May 24, 2011 (UTC)

Wait...How is Endless Waltz an "an alternate version of the After Colony timeline" ? Considering it takes after TV series and Battlefield of the Pacifist. Unless there is something I am missing here...

~ Azkaiel 23:36, May 24, 2011 (UTC)

This is exactly what I'm saying. It can't be an alternate universe, even when the new manga is retconning the series itself to have the Katoki version suits in the entire timeline. It's clearly stated to be canon- the same canon, not a different one. That's what a retcon is, and so we need to treat all the suits as being the same suits- hence, not splitting them up. Kit-chan 03:10, May 25, 2011 (UTC)

Kit, I notice you use the word 'same', when describing the mid season upgrades of the 5 Gundams and their EW versions. I am trying to understand what you mean, when you say 'same', seeing as how the EW versions look nothing like their previous mid season versions, and are armed differently also. So how can they be the same ?

Also, is the Ground Zero comic considered part of canon ? if it is, didn't Heero mention that the Wing Zero was upgraded by himself, to test a concept ? Wouldn't that admission qualify that the Wing Zero Custom, and therefore by extension, the EW versions of the other 4 Gundams, are in fact different machines, despite bearing the same model code/name.

~ Azkaiel 04:31, May 25, 2011 (UTC)

Because canon says so. It isn't up to us to decide whether the suits are the same or not; official material says they are, so they are. Ground Zero isn't canon; nor is BoP or Blind Target. ONLY the series, EW, and Episode Zero are true canon (FT is up in the air for the moment but it's definitely more canon than GZ, BoP or BT since Sumisawa is the writer). Heero's spiel about the upgrade was only that staff writer's invention, so it can't be considered in this discussion. Kit-chan 04:55, May 25, 2011 (UTC)

If we can afford to be specific/comprehensive on 00 Gundams, and make separate pages about 00 7 Sword/Gun and 00 7 Sword/G Inspection, I don't see why we should begrudge the AC Gundams the same treatment. Also if we are concerned about the confusion over the dual usage of the model numbers between the TV, Ver.Ka and OVA units, why not make a disambiguation page, indicating the name is shared. And yes, while I agree that its alot of work to add all those pages, but I feel that AC units should get the same kind of effort that was put in for 00.

~ Azkaiel 22:50, May 24, 2011 (UTC)

Be careful : 00 Seven Sword/G and 00 Seven Sword/G Inspection are different units. They have different model number and the Inspection has increased peformances, so they're different. But I agree with you on the fact that the AC Units should get the same kind of effort than the AD ones. HPZ - O.N.E. 23:05, May 24, 2011 (UTC)

Thing is, it has nothing to do with "effort" on the pages, they're fine as they are- it's a matter of making new pages being unnecessary, incorrect, confusing for readers, and just making things more complicated. Kit-chan 03:13, May 25, 2011 (UTC)

Granted the Ver.Ka units wont need a new page, that's only like what ? 5+ 'new' unit pages at most. For a wikia with over 3000 pages, whats another 5+ more ? Most of Kit's concerns can be resolved by the use of :

- A disambiguation page, pointing out clearly that there are two pages, both of which bear the same model code, existing in two different parts of the AC timeline, one of which is the TV series, the other being the EW OVA.

- Article wise, there can be a header in either the TV/EW version mentioning that this unit is from the respective series and that there is another suit bearing the same name/model code in the EW/TV series.

I find that to be a logical and reasonable solution to settling the issues of "confusing the readers" and "making things complicated". Let's face it, despite the two versions sharing the same name/model, the EW versions are different, cosmetically and armament wise, and should deserve to have their own page. I refuse to bring in performance, as a consideration, owing to the fact there are no concrete values, other than game created stats from the various games. Besides, if we can afford to be so precise about the unit articles in other timelines, why not apply that for AC as well ? It's another few pages at most, something that i hardly consider that would cause any negative effects.

~ Azkaiel 04:09, May 25, 2011 (UTC)

Why 5? At most Wing ZERO is the only one who you could possibly excuse needing a new page. The other 4 definitely do not need new pages at all. My concerns stem from a few things: 1) That for casual readers of the wiki, trying to figure out why there are two pages when they are not familiar with the content and what the differences are, as well as sending the wrong message (that they are different suits when they are not), 2) Precedent-wise, we don't create different pages for different variants of suits (especially where the serial code shows they are the same suit); To change that should be given a lot more mental pause than I feel this is being given; 3) It goes against official classification, which is that the suits are the same and shouldn't be considered different suits. Kit-chan 05:05, May 25, 2011 (UTC)

so much opinions... im feeling a little on both sides =.= even though i asked the question The Commander That is Brave... =.=; 23:52, May 24, 2011 (UTC)

We could just flip a coin to decide. -The Phantom Impact - The ultimate Super Robot from beneath the heavens 00:16, May 25, 2011 (UTC)

I argue that the Ver Ka Wing Gundams were meant to be the same suits as in the TV series, just made to look different. We've listed the differences between the EW versions and the TV versions on the same page, so I still feel there's no reason to create a new page. Gaeaman 788 - The sign of Zeta leads to a dead end 06:32, May 25, 2011 (UTC)

Well, here are official material. There are two different pages : one for the TV Version and one for the EW Ver. (the latter is labelled as "EW Ver."). Same thing with the other suits, but only for the mid-season upgrades. Now, it's up to you guys to decide whether we create those separate articles or not. HPZ - O.N.E. 11:12, May 25, 2011 (UTC)

One guidebook that lists them separately, vs all other canon material. I remain unconvinced. Kit-chan 17:06, May 25, 2011 (UTC)

I would like to point out that Japanese not really has concept of "canon". Not that I'm agree with seperating now. Kuruni 17:41, May 25, 2011 (UTC)

With the talk I'm always hearing about Sunrise considering only animated pieces to be official when making new projects, it sure doesn't seem that way... But I guess it could be something they did to shut the Westerners up.. :P Kit-chan 17:44, May 25, 2011 (UTC)

Basically, I think Japanese alway aware when they're dealing with fictional work. Think of it this way, while you trying to figure out which one is actally used in Mobile Suit Gundam, the FF-X7-Bst Core Booster or G-Fighter? Japanese just say "It's G-Fighter in TV series and Core Booster in movie trilogy", and leave it at that - never trying to figure out the "real fictional event" :D.

Back to topic, I think the real problem with this article (as well as other W gundams) is that, sometime the article just focus on one version and never make it clear that few stuff written doesn't apply to other. But we can fix that. Kuruni 17:57, May 25, 2011 (UTC)

Maybe... I don't know if it's possible here, but on the Digimon Wikia, they have only one page for all of the versions of one species (like that : http://digimon.wikia.com/wiki/Agumon). What do you think of this idea ? HPZ - O.N.E. 19:05, May 25, 2011 (UTC)

Makes sense to me, but isn't that essentially how we already have it laid out? Kit-chan 23:26, May 25, 2011 (UTC)

Not quite the same : they have one box for each version. Here, we have only one for both versions. HPZ - O.N.E. 23:45, May 25, 2011 (UTC)

Okay, so... here is my answer : [1] [2] . I don't know if you see what I mean but basically, there are two completely separate infoboxes for each version of this MS. This example isn't perfect of course : there will be things to change and rearrange. What do you think of this solution ? HPZ - O.N.E. 17:59, June 20, 2011 (UTC)

Still, their histories are exactly the same, the designs do affect the features. To lay it out simply, HPZ's argument is that Wing Zero and WZC are canonically the same unit, but the differences between the two based on the different designesr (Ookawara vs Katoki) are significant enough that they require differentiation. The differences can easily be pointed out in the infobox, and WZC is retconned as though it were Wing Zero from the anime. Essentially the two designs are retconned to be the same suitGaeaman 788 - The sign of Zeta leads to a dead end 18:43, June 20, 2011 (UTC)

Two infoboxes one page makes sense enough to me. The bodytext on the page wouldn't have to be changed that way since they have the same history, etc. Kit-chan 21:51, June 20, 2011 (UTC)

The real problem with the TV and Ka. versions is that they're alternate interpretations, like the Hi-v and Nightengale, without the benefit of having separate model numbers. Kit-chan: You're more familiar with the redesigns than me, so let me ask you: Are there any actual differences between the versions that aren't purely aesthetic? —AscendedAlteran 02:00, June 21, 2011 (UTC)

Well, there are armament and structure differences. Custom saw the removal of the piledriver shield, and with that, the removal of Neo-Bird Mode (and thus its Mobile Armor mode/classification for wiki purposes; for this reason I could see needing different info boxes because of the new semantics stuff, at least as I understand it). Custom instead has atmospheric re-entry heat shields built into the wings as well as the coccoon-like re-entry pod thing that it breaks out of when Heero picks it up in Endless Waltz. Also, it isn't really an armament change but they moved the beam saber storage from the arms to the shoulder pylons that the wings are mounted to. That's about all I can think of for sure. The Search-Eye, ZERO System etc are all the same. Thing is, these changes are treated as retcons rather than modifications or upgrades between series and EW. Kit-chan 02:48, June 21, 2011 (UTC)

"where the Altron used its shield, the Altron EW Ver. didn't. Same for the Wing Zero : in the situations where it transformed, it's EW Ver. didn't. See what I mean ? For me, but that's only my opinion, the EW Ver. are set in an alternate version of the After Colony timeline." That's exactly what I meant by that, Kit-chan. HPZ - O.N.E. 08:30, June 21, 2011 (UTC)

Yes, but opinions are not what ought to shape encyclopedic content when we have official word otherwise. As far as Sunrise+Bandai are concerned, it's the same universe, and it's not up to us to decide it's not. Seperating the infoboxes and noting the armament differences there is enough. There is still zero difference in any of the suits' histories that we CAN note or, really, that is noteworthy since everything's outcome is still the same anyway. Kit-chan 08:58, June 21, 2011 (UTC)

I actually agree completely with you. Could the "two infoboxes-one page" thing work then (I'm asking that to the admins) ? HPZ - O.N.E. 10:11, June 21, 2011 (UTC)

I'm not an admin, but I can tell you it won't work as well as you were hoping (admittedly I was hoping a bit too). I ran a quick test by putting a second infobox lower on the page; these two images are the result. Record my vote down as either distinguishing the differences with a single infobox (like we currently have) or making a separate page and adding "Custom" (or "Ver. Ka.", but I prefer "Custom") to the name. I'm in favor of applying the same treatment to all the MS that have armament differences in their Ver. Ka. treatments as well, since consistency of presentation is second only to accuracy of information. —AscendedAlteran 19:39, June 21, 2011 (UTC)

That's weird. Are you sure it's not just something that messed up with the code? Well... I'm against splitting the pages no matter what, so in this case I think leaving the page as-is with the differences noted is enough. Most of the redesigns aren't so heavily modified (esp the original 5 Gundams) so I never thought this was super necessary anyway other than for Wing ZERO since its actual MS/MA structure changes... (Epyon retains all of its stuff, btw and the other Gundams' each have only maybe one or two arm/equipment changes, many of which are optional). Kit-chan 23:00, June 21, 2011 (UTC)

Okay.. I just went through and added all the differences between the TV and EW versions of the Gundams, so people can see what exactly the differences are. As I said, I don't think it's enough to justify a pagesplit for any of them, but at least now you can see clearly what the differences are. Kit-chan 23:35, June 21, 2011 (UTC)

No, the coding is just doing exactly what it's supposed to (otherwise what's beside the infoboxes in the page proper would be below them (which would play merry hell with the page layout). As an aside, since these are retcons, should we give the Custom versions first spot in the infobox images? —AscendedAlteran 01:04, June 22, 2011 (UTC)

When I basically said retcon, I meant that the suits are one and the same, meaning that if Ookawara had designed the suits from EW, the TV versions of the suits would be in there. It really doesn't matter which version gets first preference, though since the TV units came out first they should probably be given the first spot in the box images. Btw, has anyone (Admin or not) gotten a pop up concerning a new wikia editor?Gaeaman 788 - The sign of Zeta leads to a dead end 01:09, June 22, 2011 (UTC)

Oh, what I meant was the lack of the infobox's borders (at least it looked like they were missing? I'm not sure what the problem you were pointing out was otherwise). As for the pictures, I'm fine with either way, I guess it just depends on whether more people would prefer them in 'most canon' order or out-of-universe chronological. I'm fine either way, though it might be easier to just keep them as is because most of the pages also notate the suits' features in the current order? (TV, then any EW changes) So whatever everyone else decides on that one, I'm fine with. Also I got that pop up message too, I wish wikia would stop messing with stuff that isn't broken.. ~_~ Kit-chan 01:13, June 22, 2011 (UTC)

So I've been doing a bit of thinking: The best way to resolve this issue, in my opinion, would be if we can get an entirely new type infobox installed using the new coding style we're currently implementing with tabs on the top that would actually let us switch between different infoboxes like the new style switches between images. This way we can accommodate the different bits of information without having to worry about splitting the pages, adding a second infobox further down the page, or cluttering up the infobox with excessive information. Do you guys think we should see if its possible? —AscendedAlteran 21:48, July 1, 2011 (UTC)

They do it in the Kingdom Hearts wikia, and I think it works pretty well, so I'm in favor of this. -The Phantom Impact - The ultimate Super Robot from beneath the heavens 21:55, July 1, 2011 (UTC)

Sounds fine to me. That's what I was thinking of from the beginning. Kit-chan 01:23, July 2, 2011 (UTC)

Then why didn't you say so? XD Oh, and about the MS histories for the AC Gundams: Do you think we should start moving the non-production-specific info onto the pilot's pages like we do with the 00 Gundams? —AscendedAlteran 09:50, July 2, 2011 (UTC)