Talk: Mobile Suit Gundam: Cucuruz Doan's Island

I see that in my absent, people have lots of fun making up stuff out of thin air. Guess balofo really influence everyone here. Well, the movie is based on TV Series and not The Origin manga. My girlfriend was a loli. 05:47, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

It is based on episode 15 of the TV series which is acknowledged twice in the article (infobox/opening paragraph). However, due to shared staff, cast and audio-visual aesthetic, we placed under the Project: The Origin

(as in the Wiki's not Sunrise's).--FortressMaximus (Talk) 07:56, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

As well as shove everything Origin-related to it, such as identify Doan in the movie as Origin's version. Come on, just admit that you speculated and miss. It isn't like anyone will be surprised. My girlfriend was a loli. 09:22, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

I admit that because information was not available at the time, inference was needed. I have explained on Talk:Cucuruz Doan (Origin) that once more information is available (namely the identity of his former military unit and subordinates), that the decision of whether to split the page(s) will be done. However, as the interview was only translated recently, I have not enough had time to act. There are only two users working on this project and I'm sure both of us have other Wiki stuff and IRL stuff to deal with.

The position of Sunrise and Yas is very nuanced, so we should all be careful to take every source presented into consideration and not fixate on the one source.

The decision making on this project is being done on the discord, so please direct all opinions or viewpoints you have on what we have done and what we will do moving forward, there. The quicker we communicate the less misunderstandings and confusion there are.--FortressMaximus (Talk) 18:38, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

Fuck Discord. Especially after the incident that ultimately cost me Rushia.

I welcome you to discuss this pressing issue in a civil manner. If that method of communication I suggested goes against your principles. Then how about Wiki Discussions? A talk page just is very inefficient and tedious to get points across.--FortressMaximus (Talk) 13:44, 26 March 2022 (UTC)

"I admit that because information was not available at the time" "The position of Sunrise and Yas is very nuanced, so we should all be careful to take every source presented into consideration and not fixate on the once source." Two contradictiing statements. If you want ot be careful, then you'll only put certain information instead of speculating, especially if you're aware you can't fix mistake in timely manner. Ultimately, it look like the only real gift balofo leave here is encourage people to jump the gun.My girlfriend was a loli. 12:41, 26 March 2022 (UTC)

The statement is for both of us. Update the hypothesis when presented with new evidence and formulate a new hypothesis. Which I am willing to do but haven't due to time constraints. However, that does not mean old evidence is not noteworthy.--FortressMaximus (Talk) 13:44, 26 March 2022 (UTC)

I'll give you another day to submit your own concise and constructive proposal under this section. If you have not started writing anything yet. Only proposals A, B and C will be considered.--FortressMaximus (Talk) 19:28, 31 March 2022 (UTC)

What is currently known

A: Episode 15

1. Yas's The Origin manga adapts some other MSG episodes but not episode 15.
2. The Origin MSD manga has a title, character and location taken from episode 15, but the events of episode 15 are not actually adapted.

B: The Official Movie Synopsis

See https://www.gundam.info/news/video-music/01_6782.html

1. This is set after the Battle of Jaburo
2. This is set before Operation Odessa

C: The Official Movie Images and Trailers

See website, trailer 1 and trailer 2

1. The RX-78-02 Gundam appears
2. The Origin design of the RGM-79 GM appears
3. Sleggar Law appears

D: 2021 December issue of Gundam Ace

See https://ddnavi.com/interview/916502/a/

1. 安彦: でも今回の映画化の直接のきっかけは、おおのじゅんじさんの漫画があったからなんだけどね。
2. 安彦: それで「ククルス・ドアンの島」のことを思い出して、おおのさんの漫画について詳しく話を聞いたら、一年戦争の色んな時期の話を前後して描いていて、テレビシリーズとはあまり関係がない話だと。俺がやりたいのは、テレビシリーズの話をもとにしたものだから、そことは重ならないので、サンライズに「『ククルス・ドアンの島』の映像化は有りかな？」と聞いたら、「どうぞ」と言われて。そんな形で、話がスタートしているんですよ。
3. 安彦:　順調です。だから、来年のほどよい時期に公開できるんじゃないかな。『THE ORIGIN』のOVAは、過去編を原作にしたアニメ化だったけど、『ククルス・ドアンの島』は漫画でも描いていないし、いろんな要素や展開を交えた、ほとんどオリジナルに近い作品なので、すごく楽しく作ることができている感じですね。

E: 2022 Spring issue of Great Mechanics G

See http://www.zeonic-republic.net/?p=9284

1. For starters, I was quite surprised by the making of an independent film with Cucuruz Doan’s Island. How did you react to this?
   • Ogata says that if he’s being honest, he was “taken aback.” “Are we really going to do Doan?” he asked. There are varying reasons for how it all came about, but basically, Yasuhiko has been working on Gundam the Origin for quite a long time and had a strong desire to finally make a movie with the Gundam. But, he was also quite surprised by his proposal to turn Cucuruz Doan’s Island into a film. Laughing, he says that five years ago, he didn’t think anyone would have believed that Hathaway’s Flash and Cucuruz Doan’s Island would become movies.
2. I suppose you’re right (laughs). I was wondering whether it was intended to bolster the series based on the so-called One Year War.
   • Ogata says that for the overall strategy of the Gundam series, this year, they have Mobile Suit Gundam: The Witch from Mercury as the title to expand the base to the younger generation. Plus, there are titles for those who have supported the Gundam series, whose goals are to broaden the base of the series, such as Iron-Blooded Orphans and the Gundam SEED movie that’s currently in production. The same can be said for Hathaway’s Flash and Gundam UC. Both are closely connected with each other in supporting the series, but this time Cucuruz Doan’s Island is a work that is positioned to delve deeper into the latter (he’s referring to the theme of the movie).
3. For fans, I think that part of them is honestly wondering, “That Cucuruz Doan?”
   • Ogata says that’s because there are many meanings to Cucuruz Doan, after all. He doesn’t think that those who made the original episode, along with the staff, including Director Tomino, were satisfied with it. We only know what went on during production at the time through hearsay, so we don’t know exactly what happened. Even as a filmmaker, there is this sense that it’s not something that can proudly be shown off to the world. Even for Director Tomino, that episode was locked away for a time, or so he says. He could sense that he wanted to keep it tucked away from people. But, recently, he had the nuance that maybe it was possible to preserve it in the world in terms of its historical (documentary-like) value and the fact that it was created.
4. Maybe that’s because Yasuhiko looked at it up close and felt deeply embarrassed by it?
   • Ogata says that is due to him being part of the main staff. He feels it means a lot for him to have said that he wanted to make Cucuruz Doan. If you think about it, the themes of Cucuruz Doan’s Island are certainly very suited to Yasuhiko: the underlying elements that he focused on, like “anti-war” and “smaller battles,” are crucial.
5. THE NUANCE OF THE ONE YEAR WAR IN YASUHIKO’S WORLD
   • What also surprised me was that “THE ORIGIN” wasn’t attached to the title.
   • Ogata: I know, right? That was my initial thought as well. My understanding was that the project’s direction was to do what we couldn’t accomplish with “THE ORIGIN.” However, when deciding on the title (at that stage), Yasuhiko says, “This time, it will not be ‘THE ORIGIN’.”
6. In terms of story development, it’s along the axis of THE ORIGIN, right?
   • Ogata: Yasuhiko’s sense of the timeline (lit. time basis, time axis) and location of Gundam differ from the setting of Gundam as depicted in THE ORIGIN. The timeframe of Jaburo and the location of the island of Cucuruz Doan in this work are based on the axis of THE ORIGIN, but Yasuhiko has emphasized that this work is a film adaptation based on episode fifteen of Mobile Suit Gundam.
7. Oh, I see. So rather than THE ORIGIN, this is a remake of episode fifteen of the series?
   • Ogata: That would be correct. Yasuhiko insists to the end that it is still “Mobile Suit Gundam.” The film is being finished now, and I think it will change the perception. You might feel betrayed but in a good sense. “What would happen if we made a 100-minute film of a single episode from the TV series?” Gundam series up to now have been targeted towards middle and high schoolers and youth in their formative (sensitive) years. But, Cucuruz Doan’s Island is very much from a child’s perspective. If we look back on past Gundam series films, I don’t think there has been a single film that you could say from the getgo “it’s recommended to watch as a family.” It has a sort of anti-war movie touch to it, like the ones we used to watch at school during summer break when we were little. There are also elements of juvenile elements for kids, so I think it can be enjoyed by families and even enjoyed as a film that brings back times of being a boy. I’m sure this is a movie that dads can use as an excuse for spending time with family and taking everyone to see it.
8. That certainly changes the impression to an extent, then, doesn’t it?
   • Ogata: It results in a “what have you done?” but I think that maybe that’s the potential the episode had from the very beginning, something I feel the work may not have satisfied at the time. I think Gundam was revolutionary in robot animation at the time, in so much that it was possible to include an episode like Cucuruz Doan’s Island. I felt that breadth again with this film adaptation. I had first wondered if we could really expand on that story, but my worries turned out to be unfounded. Plus, what I personally feel is significant about this was that there hasn’t been a work that properly depicts the RX-78-2 Gundam since the original work.
9. That makes sense. Sure, there have been games and special footage, but nothing in the main series.
   • Ogata: I think we depicted the RX-78 standing up in the special video for THE ORIGIN, but I don’t think there was any other footage of the RX-78 in action. This is the first time Sunrise has done this since the film trilogy, isn’t it? I’m from the Gunpla generation, so the impact of the RX-78 in action in 2022 is quite significant.
10. I’m aware that you explored various other media for expressing this, but what made you choose a film?
    • Ogata: We wanted to make a film from the very beginning, and we couldn’t imagine an OVA-like series, so we had no other alternative than to make it a single movie.

Now you come up with a nuanced proposal that incorporates all aforementioned sources, not just Source E. and add it as level 3 subsection under #Proposals as of the existence of source E--FortressMaximus (Talk) 13:44, 26 March 2022 (UTC)

The decision up until Source E existed

Disclaimer: This, (the whole section, not individual points), is not the decision going forward.

1. The movie adapts episode 15. There is no endorsement of any of the following statements (with reasons given):
   • "The movie adapts Yasuhiko's The Origin manga": This does not make sense because of A1; there is no existing origin manga equivalent of the episode 15 story to adapt. D3 corroborates this; The Origin ova adapts The Origin manga chapters, the Doan movie adapts TV series Episode 15 but is mostly newly thought up content. The story has never been done as a manga, not by Yas, nor by Ohno.
   • "The movie adapts Ohno's The Origin MSD Cucuruz Doan's Island manga ": This does not make sense because of A2; Ohno's manga is not the origin equivalent of episode 15 despite its title.
2. Yas acknowledges that Ohno's manga was the direct reason for the movie being made (D1).
3. Sunrise allowed Yas to make this movie because episode 15 had very little to do with the other events in the TV series (D2)
4. The movie is compatible with the origin manga version of the One Year War
   • B1 and B2 show that the Battle of Jaburo comes before Operation Odessa, this is how those events were arranged in The Origin manga, the opposite of the MSG version of events.
   • Sleggar Law joined the White Base crew at Jaburo and the movie is set after the Battle of Jaburo hence C3.
5. The movie uses Origin designs and model numbers for mobile suits
   • C1 has the model number being RX-78-02, the same as the Origin version of The Gundam, the C2 also shows it is the Origin GM design.

--FortressMaximus (Talk) 14:20, 26 March 2022 (UTC)

Proposals as of the existence of source E

Proposal A (discarded)

This is the current decision with new amendments taking into consideration points from Source E. It hinges on the interpretation of E5 and E6.

1. The movie adapts episode 15. There is no endorsement of any of the following statements (with reasons given):
   • "The movie adapts Yasuhiko's The Origin manga": This does not make sense because of A1; there is no existing origin manga equivalent of the episode 15 story to adapt. D3 corroborates this; The Origin ova adapts The Origin manga chapters, the Doan movie adapts TV series Episode 15 but is mostly newly thought up content. The story has never been done as a manga, not by Yas, nor by Ohno. E6 and E7 both emphasize this.
   • "The movie adapts Ohno's The Origin MSD Cucuruz Doan's Island manga ": This does not make sense because of A2; Ohno's manga is not the origin equivalent of episode 15 despite its title.
2. The movie **looks** like it could be The Origin but it isn't titled as such. In E5, the movie not having The Origin attached to its title is regarded as surprising by the interviewer and Ogata.
3. Yas acknowledges that Ohno's manga was the direct reason for the movie being made (D1).
4. Sunrise allowed Yas to make this movie because episode 15 had very little to do with the other events in the TV series (D2)
5. The movie is compatible with the origin manga version of the One Year War
   • B1 and B2 show that the Battle of Jaburo comes before Operation Odessa, this is how those events were arranged in The Origin manga, the opposite of the MSG version of events. E6 corroborates this with "The timeframe of Jaburo and the location of the island of Cucuruz Doan in this work are based on the axis of THE ORIGIN". The part of E6 after that bit is acknowledged in point 1 in this proposal.
   • Sleggar Law joined the White Base crew at Jaburo and the movie is set after the Battle of Jaburo hence C3.
6. The movie uses Origin designs and model numbers for mobile suits
   • C1 has the model number being RX-78-02, the same as the Origin version of The Gundam, the C2 also shows it is the Origin GM design.

--FortressMaximus (Talk) 15:50, 26 March 2022 (UTC)

Proposal B (chosen)

Cucuruz Doan's Island is not The Origin or vice-versa. Rather, both are set in "The One Year War in Yasuhiko's World" (E5) or "Yasuhiko’s sense of the timeline" (E6).

We currently disambiguate Origin entities from their main UC counterparts by appending "(Origin)" to their title e.g. Amuro Ray and Amuro Ray (Origin). Two new amendments will be made to the current decision:

1. In E5, Ogata's initial thought was that The Origin would be attached to the movie title. Because of Yas, they didn't. In E6, Ogata then mentions "Yasuhiko’s sense of the timeline" and says "the movie is on the same axis as the origin." which at first seems to corroborate points 4 and 5 but E6 also mentions Yas's emphasis on episode 15 being adapted. Henceforth "(Yasuhiko)" replaces "(Origin)" as the disambiguation term. Entities from The Origin manga/ova and Doan movie go be titled as such e.g. Amuro Ray (Yasuhiko) and Cucuruz Doan (Yasuhiko).
2. The current Cucuruz Doan (Origin) page moves to Cucuruz Doan (Ohno) or Cucuruz Doan (MSD) to disambiguate from the third version of Doan.--FortressMaximus (Talk) 15:26, 26 March 2022 (UTC)

Proposal C (discarded)

The most drastic decision would be to create a third continuity to disambiguate with; "(Doan)". For example, there'd be Amuro Ray, Amuro Ray (Origin), Amuro Ray (Doan). Amuro Ray (Doan) would have no history beyond what will be presented in the movie. Similarly, there'd be RX-78-2 Gundam, RX-78-02 Gundam and RX-78-02 Gundam (Doan).--FortressMaximus (Talk) 19:46, 26 March 2022 (UTC)

Decision as of Source E

Proposal B has been chosen with some amendments:

• Moving will disrupt a lot of existing pages so pages with the (Yas) suffix will currently re-direct to pages with the (Origin) or /Origin suffix.
• A shared navbox template will be implemented.
• The (MSD) page will not be moved. (CDI) will be used to disambiguate the movie version of Cucuruz Doan from the MSD manga version.

This decision will also continually evolve. We are awaiting Mobile Suit Bible issue 150 which will allegedly contain information about CDI and the movie itself.--FortressMaximus (Talk) 22:09, 8 April 2022 (UTC)